Politics

[Shark`]

anyone interested in different political systems? I suggest reading the Communist Manifesto, great book and very influential

[§§}Joe]

Lolz communism is great on paper. ;D

[Shark`]

Dec 16, 2010 11:43:25 GMT -8 §§}Joe said:

Lolz communism is great on paper. ;D

Please dont refer to the communism you see in China, North Korea, and Cuba as fine examples of communism. All of those governments started with the full support of its people, but fell due to the terrible corruption that they hold.

Personally im a Trotskyist, he believed that as 1 revolution topples the capitalistic government in one country, they must be willing to help there comrades in other countries. If that doesn't speak true comradery, then im speechless.

[§§}Joe]

Dec 16, 2010 16:15:52 GMT -8 Shark` said:

Dec 16, 2010 11:43:25 GMT -8 §§}Joe said:

Lolz communism is great on paper. ;D

Please dont refer to the communism you see in China, North Korea, and Cuba as fine examples of communism. All of those governments started with the full support of its people, but fell due to the terrible corruption that they hold.

Personally im a Trotskyist, he believed that as 1 revolution topples the capitalistic government in one country, they must be willing to help there comrades in other countries. If that doesn't speak true comradery, then im speechless.

I foresee awesome debates with you in the future. ;D

[Shark`]

Yes Sir, i am a very good debater. So no one else reads about politics?

[[CC]#shiNe! aka LeCrae]

Maybe I should start?

[BooM!]

I'm a bit of a reader and am interested in current events. This would include politics and economics. I've even taken an interest in learning about the major and minor differences of each of the socio-political philosophies (communism/democracy/socialism).

There is a stigma that has been ingrained with the word 'communist', at least in the USA (of which I currently reside). Although the idea in itself is not inherently bad, it seems that communism by itself does not work.

That being said, democracy at this point is not faring all too well either. I'd be happy to explain/debate further, if anyone is interested.

[§§}Joe]

By all means if you feel you want to,after all this IS politics.

[Shark`]

Dec 16, 2010 18:40:48 GMT -8 [CC]#shiNe! aka LeCrae said:

Maybe I should start?

Only if your intrested, takes some sort of passion to make you read through a crap load of ideas made by old men who never imagined society as it is today.

Dec 16, 2010 19:30:04 GMT -8 BooM! said:

That being said, democracy at this point is not faring all too well either. I'd be happy to explain/debate further, if anyone is interested.

Please do.

[BooM!]

So,

Democracy in itself also is fine in concept. However, considering we have the highest debt levels we've ever seen, the lowest trust in our government (congress approval rating somewhere in the teens), a country completely divided, the over-powered executive branch of our system, rampant corruption... I think it's easy to see where this is going.

Somewhere along the line in this country, we've turned away from the core democratic values and went to... well, something else.

[Poseidon]

Have you read theories from people like locke, rousseau, hobbes, voltaire, montequieu? i like lockes ideas the best.

I want to read the book bold fresh, and going rogue too

if any of you are wondering im republican/conservative

[Shark`]

Dec 16, 2010 20:17:44 GMT -8 BooM! said:

So,

Democracy in itself also is fine in concept. However, considering we have the highest debt levels we've ever seen, the lowest trust in our government (congress approval rating somewhere in the teens), a country completely divided, the over-powered executive branch of our system, rampant corruption... I think it's easy to see where this is going.

Somewhere along the line in this country, we've turned away from the core democratic values and went to... well, something else.

Democracy in the United States is heavily flawed. As my good friend joe mentioned in the earlier post, somethings just sound good on paper. The whole point of democracy in the united states is to reassure the people that they have a point, a voice, a say in affairs that we do not fully understand. Yet, the winner of Presidency of this wonderful country has already been decided before the ballets are open. This is not due to the debates that are heavily played on the media, but the under the counter/closed doors deals that happen to financially support the candidate.

Do you think Obama got all that money just because he was half-black? Against my dearest wishes, he didnt get all his money from Oprah, but from lobbyist from big time corporations. Everyone knew Obama was going to win, hence why tons of companies like Pepsi endorsed the Obama campaign Ads for him and letting celebrities and music stars to be on them . Due to the fact that the president has started his campaign taking money from these big companies, he owes a debt to them. Which could either come as a special bill that raises store taxes or anything.

Don't be alarmed. My other clan has a debate section, so long answered post like these are common for me.

[BooM!]

Every socio-political philosophy is flawed. This is why we do not have a perfect way of doing things. There is simply no way to make everyone happy.

In fairness, Joe referenced communism as sounding good only 'on paper'. Your reference was toward democracy. As I stated earlier, I think we have veered from our core democratic roots. However, I do think democracy at its core has the 'best' idea, as apposed to communism or socialism. It's just a matter of getting this country back on track.

Admittedly, that could take a radical and possibly violent shift in power. That is, taking power back from the government and giving it back to the people, where it should have been in the first place. IE - Democracy.

I agree with the idea that lobbyists for major corporate interests financing a president-elect is a bad thing. Though it would be naive to think that Obama was the first president to do this. This method of gaining power has become standard-operating-procedure for all president-elects and it's been going on for quite a while. If it's any comfort, there is debate as to whether or not this very thing is constitutional. Of course, I think it's not. This is but one of a multitude of issues that needs to be addressed in our country.

President Obama played on everyone's hopes in his election. As it turns out, a growing number of people feel he has let them down. Personally, I think he had good intentions at the start. But now I think our problems in this country are so vast that not even a president can solve them. Unfortunately for him, he's going to end up taking the brunt of everyone's anger for things that weren't necessarily his fault. As he has undoubtedly learned, playing on people's hopes can be a fickle thing.

I noticed your reference to Trotskyism, Shark. I don't see how this is immediately relevant to... well, anything. For those that are lost: this is an alternate view of communist ideals by a man named Leon Trotsky that started in the earlier 1900's. It rivaled certain aspects of Stalin's communism, but nevertheless was still communism by definition. It's not applicable in today's standards since it had to do with the internal conflicts of Russia in that time period. Indeed, this version of communism was never implemented in any country to my knowledge.

Off topic: What other clan are you involved in? A friendly reminder: double-clanning is not tolerated here. Unless it has nothing to do with Halo PC, of course.

[Shark`]

Dec 16, 2010 23:44:34 GMT -8 BooM! said:

Every socio-political philosophy is flawed. This is why we do not have a perfect way of doing things. There is simply no way to make everyone happy.

In fairness, Joe referenced communism as sounding good only 'on paper'. Your reference was toward democracy. As I stated earlier, I think we have veered from our core democratic roots. However, I do think democracy at its core has the 'best' idea, as apposed to communism or socialism. It's just a matter of getting this country back on track.

Admittedly, that could take a radical and possibly violent shift in power. That is, taking power back from the government and giving it back to the people, where it should have been in the first place. IE - Democracy.

Paragraph 1 and 2 response:
Yeah i understand, he commented communism, but my personal views feel that this is exactly how it is for democracy.

A response for the radical takeover, i hope you know that in order to attain a communist state, a country/state must go to civil war against the bourgeoisie(rich/higher class people) and the existing government to start a completely new government. I honestly doubt that after a radical takeover, that the leader of the movement will want to hand over the control and the military power he has over this country. A lot of great men have tried to fight for "the people" cause only to be tempted and made into the very thing they swore to rid. I can probably pull out some examples, but the only one i can think of is a bad one(Fidel Castro).

Dec 16, 2010 23:44:34 GMT -8 BooM! said:

I agree with the idea that lobbyists for major corporate interests financing a president-elect is a bad thing. Though it would be naive to think that Obama was the first president to do this. This method of gaining power has become standard-operating-procedure for all president-elects and it's been going on for quite a while. If it's any comfort, there is debate as to whether or not this very thing is constitutional. Of course, I think it's not. This is but one of a multitude of issues that needs to be addressed in our country.

President Obama played on everyone's hopes in his election. As it turns out, a growing number of people feel he has let them down. Personally, I think he had good intentions at the start. But now I think our problems in this country are so vast that not even a president can solve them. Unfortunately for him, he's going to end up taking the brunt of everyone's anger for things that weren't necessarily his fault. As he has undoubtedly learned, playing on people's hopes can be a fickle thing.

Lol @ that Obama thing. Of course i know that this has been going on for decades now, i was just pulling out the most recent example so that people wouldn't feel the need to research President Wilson and his corruption with the Monopoly companies.

As for the blunt comment, yeah it was destined to happen. As soon as Bush left office he left a staggering debt and the longest war America has been into in Obama's hands. Hell, i heard on CNN that they called the Iraqi War, Obama's War. There always has to be a political scape goat for the sake of politicians everywhere, or the people would begin to blame the entire government.

Dec 16, 2010 23:44:34 GMT -8 BooM! said:

I noticed your reference to Trotskyism, Shark. I don't see how this is immediately relevant to... well, anything. For those that are lost: this is an alternate view of communist ideals by a man named Leon Trotsky that started in the earlier 1900's. It rivaled certain aspects of Stalin's communism, but nevertheless was still communism by definition. It's not applicable in today's standards since it had to do with the internal conflicts of Russia in that time period. Indeed, this version of communism was never implemented in any country to my knowledge.

Ah, the attack of my main man Leon Trotsky. I was just stating to Joe, what my beliefs are in the communist universe. I decided to give a little bit more background on why i support his communistic beliefs.

Sadly, Trotsky was unfortunate to be cheated out of his spot to become the Premier of the USSR, when General Secretary Joseph Stalin decided to exile him on BS charges. Oh well, the past is the past no worries.

You stand correct as it was never implemented to any current communist country, since it was black listed by the Soviet Communist Party ran by Stalin.

Hence why i gave examples of different communist countries that took military aid, training and more then likely political traits from the now deceased USSR.
-------------------------------------------------------
As for the other clan, its on Halo Trial and Lacrae has given me the ok to continue to be in it.

[BooM!]

Shark said: "A lot of great men have tried to fight for 'the people' cause only to be tempted and made into the very thing they swore to rid. I can probably pull out some examples, but the only one I can think of is a bad one (Fidel Castro)"

I find it a bit humorous the one example you use for a bad take over is Fidel Castro - the leader of a communist country. Especially since it appears you are partial to communism. Seems a bit ironic. Anyway, like you said, there are sure to be other examples.

I am curious. If such a radical shift, via a new civil war perhaps, were to happen in this country, why do you think we would resort to communism as the solution? (Or am I mistaken? Do you think this?)

After all, a great deal of this country's past was spent fighting against such an ideal. Even if we have issues with our current democratic process, I find it much more likely we would revise that process rather than abolish it and resort to communism - something of which we as a nation have stood against for so many decades.

Oh, and I did not mean to make my previous post sound like an attack on Trotsky. I was simply explaining the background information of Trotskyism to prove its irrelevance in today's world. Honestly I think Trotsky himself should have been entitled, as we are today in this country, to voice his differences with the leadership of his country (regardless of socio-political philosophy). Obviously though, communism viewed/views freedom of speech a little differently seeing as how Trotsky was exiled and later assassinated for doing just that.

[Shark`]

Dec 17, 2010 3:02:29 GMT -8 BooM! said:

Shark said: "A lot of great men have tried to fight for 'the people' cause only to be tempted and made into the very thing they swore to rid. I can probably pull out some examples, but the only one I can think of is a bad one (Fidel Castro)"

I find it a bit humorous the one example you use for a bad take over is Fidel Castro - the leader of a communist country. Especially since it appears you are partial to communism. Seems a bit ironic. Anyway, like you said, there are sure to be other examples.

I am curious. If such a radical shift, via a new civil war perhaps, were to happen in this country, why do you think we would resort to communism as the solution? (Or am I mistaken? Do you think this?)

After all, a great deal of this country's past was spent fighting against such an ideal. Even if we have issues with our current democratic process, I find it much more likely we would revise that process rather than abolish it and resort to communism - something of which we as a nation have stood against for so many decades.

Oh, and I did not mean to make my previous post sound like an attack on Trotsky. I was simply explaining the background information of Trotskyism to prove its irrelevance in today's world. Honestly I think Trotsky himself should have been entitled, as we are today in this country, to voice his differences with the leadership of his country (regardless of socio-political philosophy). Obviously though, communism viewed/views freedom of speech a little differently seeing as how Trotsky was exiled and later assassinated for doing just that.

Lol, thats why i said i know its going to be a bad example.
No, i wasn't saying a revolution would automatically be a communist one, but it would follow the ideals of a typical communist takeover( establishing the vanguard and releasing mass propaganda, etc).I have never heard of a Democratic revolution in a country, all i know is that their have been communist revolutions and military coups which makes the leader of the coup to become a dictator.

The only reason why America fears communism is because of the mass propaganda that was used in the 50's to install fear in hearing the big bad Red Army Soviets. I've watched a lot of documentaries on how they produced lies and accusations against the USSR to make them look evil, and as the iron curtain dropped over the Eastern European Bloc, people only had the American lies to listen to.

Yet, i know far too well communism has its flaws too, if the power of the premier is abused( as it shows in history that it will happen) then the affects are disastrous. North Korea is a prime example, they push out there chest to say they can go toe to toe with America, yet they are starving their own people while Jon Kim eats lobster almost every night.

[BooM!]

I agree that propaganda was used in such a manner as to instill fear when the word 'communist' was used. This is, as you said, well documented in our history. As a side note, I find it interesting that nowadays the same kind of fear and uncertainty is felt when the word 'socialist' is thrown around. Ignorance is propaganda's greatest ally.

As it is well understood that people fear what they do not know, propaganda attempts to fill that void. However, by sharing only small pieces of useful information and then filling the mind with clever manipulations afterward is propaganda's way to 'guide' an audience to see a specific viewpoint on a specific topic. This 'guiding' is not dissimilar from how a sheep herder moves his sheep to where he wants them to go. Indeed, the terms 'people are sheep' and 'sheeple' are because of this very thing.

The best way to combat such a thing is through education. Whether it be learning about our history on your own or through classes at a local college, knowledge breaks the reigns of the propaganda machine.

Although, I much prefer our own propaganda to that of less... forgiving countries. Seeing as how we have no restrictions to go online/to the government paid libraries all over our country/wherever else and find the answers for ourselves. All we have to do is look. China (or any other communist country to date) is not this way. Perhaps you already know this.

But I digress. Shark, we both have come to the correct conclusion that communism and democracy have their flaws. As it turns out though, you stated earlier to "Please don't refer to the communism you see in China, North Korea, and Cuba as fine examples of communism". This of course begs the question: what example of communism, in your mind, was ever actually effectively implemented?

Simply put, our democracy has prevailed for a very long time now. This is apparent as we are, and have been, the major superpower of the world. Communism, when implemented, failed repeatedly. Therefore it can be concluded that, by examples and logic, democracy is the better socio-political philosophy than communism.

To not agree with that conclusion is to defy logic at this point.

[§§}Joe]

Dec 16, 2010 11:43:25 GMT -8 §§}Joe said:

Lolz communism is great on paper. ;D

\


To clarify what i meant,MOST political systems look good on paper.

[Poseidon]

like boom said nothing is perfect, democracy is based on majority rule so the minority is unhappy. If you look at communism in countries like china and north korea the gov has all the control and the people arent happy, no gov is perfect, each was has its ups and their unfortunate downs. or you could use a monarchy, that doesnt work, neither does limited monarchy so all of them look good on paper but none are perfect and most arent very efficient.

[Shark`]

Dec 17, 2010 13:57:25 GMT -8 BooM! said:

I agree that propaganda was used in such a manner as to instill fear when the word 'communist' was used. This is, as you said, well documented in our history. As a side note, I find it interesting that nowadays the same kind of fear and uncertainty is felt when the word 'socialist' is thrown around. Ignorance is propaganda's greatest ally.

As it is well understood that people fear what they do not know, propaganda attempts to fill that void. However, by sharing only small pieces of useful information and then filling the mind with clever manipulations afterward is propaganda's way to 'guide' an audience to see a specific viewpoint on a specific topic. This 'guiding' is not dissimilar from how a sheep herder moves his sheep to where he wants them to go. Indeed, the terms 'people are sheep' and 'sheeple' are because of this very thing.

The best way to combat such a thing is through education. Whether it be learning about our history on your own or through classes at a local college, knowledge breaks the reigns of the propaganda machine.

Although, I much prefer our own propaganda to that of less... forgiving countries. Seeing as how we have no restrictions to go online/to the government paid libraries all over our country/wherever else and find the answers for ourselves. All we have to do is look. China (or any other communist country to date) is not this way. Perhaps you already know this.

But I digress. Shark, we both have come to the correct conclusion that communism and democracy have their flaws. As it turns out though, you stated earlier to "Please don't refer to the communism you see in China, North Korea, and Cuba as fine examples of communism". This of course begs the question: what example of communism, in your mind, was ever actually effectively implemented?

Simply put, our democracy has prevailed for a very long time now. This is apparent as we are, and have been, the major superpower of the world. Communism, when implemented, failed repeatedly. Therefore it can be concluded that, by examples and logic, democracy is the better socio-political philosophy than communism.

To not agree with that conclusion is to defy logic at this point.

My personal beliefs would like to argue that point, but logically you stand correct.

Check mate.